Navigating Obamacare, Talking to a Brick Wall, Saving a Small College–and Its Town

February 18, 2025
Scott Pemberton

The winners of our FOCIS ®  Contest for 2013 took long and winding roads to their destinations but their trips were worth it–in more ways than just making a sale.

First Prize, $500:  Russ Cerny of pharmacy benefits management firm Catamaran spent more than four years pursuing a prospect, eventually dislodging its incumbent vendor of 10 years, and switching $20 million of annual revenue to his company.

Second Prize, $300:  Rich De Jong of Symbria Analytics, broadened his FOCIS ®  questions to move deeper into an organization when he thought he was blocked and is on track to acquire 15 new accounts.

Third Prize, $200:  Bill Sliwa, NRCCUA, discovered that a rural college’s dwindling enrollment would close its doors and impact the small town it helped to support to the tune of $1 million.

Navigating Obamacare
First Prize, $500: Russ Cerny, Catamaran

Four years for 40,000 “lives”  and a $20-million annual sale were Russ Cerny’s investment of time and eventual return on that investment. But patience and persistence weren’t the only tools in Cerny’s tool box. FOCIS ®  played a role, too.

His prospect, now client, is in “managed care.” It’s a health-plan company that services commercial, Medicaid, Medicare Part D members, and Affordable Care Act-exchange members. The exchange members were new to the market on January 1 as a result of Obamacare–as was everyone else.

The main challenge for the prospect’s leadership was that they “didn’t know what they didn’t know” about the issues of bringing on a new line of business under Obamacare while effectively managing their existing lines. Catamaran, however, did. And, over the previous four years or so, Cerny had ensured that management knew of Catamaran’s capabilities. He diligently provided regular communications about the anticipated ins and outs of a constantly changing and often confusing healthcare world.

“They began to recognize  the multiple [negative] implications of remaining with their status quo provider of ten years,” he explains. For example, many of the managed care company’s current covered members could make a move from their commercial line of business to the new exchange market.

“This had to be a good experience or [the prospect] would lose those covered members to the competition,” Cerny explains. Ultimately, if the transition of existing members and on-boarding of new members didn’t go well, Catamaran would then find it more difficult to take on the prospect’s other lines of business.

Positive implications also existed, if the prospect would risk change. “There were many possible solutions to enable them to better compete for new business while retaining existing business,” Cerny says. To take that risk, of course, the prospect needed to feel completely confident about Catamaran.

Because he stayed on top  of how his prospect’s business was faring, he was able to point out “how they hadn’t grown in five years” while his company, Catamaran, “was growing and so were our clients. They saw us go from a few hundred employees to more than 4,000.”

Over time the prospect saw that Catamaran was “doing things right to keep our current customers happy while winning new business,” Cerny says. “We were able to explain why they needed a partner who understood the Affordable Care Act and how to lead clients through this new line of exchange business.” In addition, Catamaran could keep up to date with government regulations for the company’s other lines of business.

“We earned the prospect’s full trust  in 2013,” says Cerny. “All 40,000 lives began transferring over to us on January 1.” (Insured individuals are known as “lives” in the industry.) The initial implementation went well , and Cerny’s new  client  is looking forward to transitioning the remainder of the business.

In summarizing how he applied his FOCIS ®  training, Cerny says, “My efforts were concentrated on pointing out implications-over and over. Once my prospect recognized the full impact, the solution was obvious.” Catamaran was the “technologically advanced” partner with the “people-expertise” that Cerny’s prospect needed to provide innovative ideas to support the company’s local market initiatives.

Talking to a Brick Wall
Second Prize, $300: Rich De Jong, Symbria Analytics

Rich De Jong asks questions for a living.  Or, rather, he and his team at Symbria Analytics create and sell surveys that ask questions. The surveys gather data that help senior-living providers offer the best experience for their residents.

Since FOCIS ®  is all about asking questions, De Jong couldn’t wait to use his new skills. “A consultative selling approach is not only effective,” he explains, “but it brings more pride to the work I do.”

Early on he ran into a brick wall.  At a first meeting, the CEO of an assisted-living provider warned that her facility conducted its own surveys. De Jong asked a FOCIS ®  implication question: “How much does it cost, including staff time, to create, collect, tabulate, and report the data?”

Strike one: The CEO didn’t think cost was a concern.

So then he asked a broader challenge question: “What’s the biggest problem you face when it comes to understanding your employees and your residents?”

Strike two: “I think I have a pretty good understanding,” the CEO replied.

A key element in FOCIS ®  is to stay on track with questions about problems your solutions can solve. But before he struck out, De Jong took a chance: “What are any of the challenges that face this organization?”

This time he connected  and the brick wall began to crack.

A flood of issues poured out, ranging from decreasing Medicare reimbursements to increasing costs of insurance. De Jong also learned the facility was one of 23 that self-insured through an insurance “captive.”

He then suggested benchmarking the CEO’s organization against the other members of the captive. “She thought that was a great idea,” De Jong says, “and volunteered to introduce me to the manager of the full captive.”

The captive in fact faced myriad challenges  with liability claims, workers’ compensation, and turnover. Says De Jong: “I started asking how much each area had cost [implications], which became extremely expensive fast.” He suggested gathering data to see if a connection existed between claims and employee satisfaction and engagement.

Soon, the manager asked De Jong to speak at an all-member meeting.

Immediately after De Jong’s presentation, members asked for details and several called him later. To date, De Jong had three signed quotes and the likelihood of  15 more. Plus, the corporate owner of this captive owned a number of others, making the path to even more sales smoother.

And there’s one more thing:  The CEO who thought her facility didn’t need De Jong’s services was among those who is now likely to sign up.

Saving a Small College-and Its Town
Third Prize, $200: Bill Sliwa, NRCCUA

Small towns with small college s are mutually dependent, their cultural and economic lives intertwined. When either town or gown begins to stumble, both are in danger of falling, even failing. Worse, understanding the reasons soon enough can be a significant challenge. That’s the situation in which Bill Sliwa, of the National Research Center for College & University Admissions (NRCCUA), found himself a year ago when he called on a client, a rural college, to renew its data contract. The data about some 5.2 million high school students supplied by the NRCCUA helps its 1500-member colleges to identify students that meet the colleges’ admissions profiles.

Instead of just renewing the contract, however, Sliwa used FOCIS ® questioning to get behind the school’s obvious objective of recruiting the next freshman class. He unearthed serious implications for the school in connection with its ability to use the data. The college was taking a $1-million hit to its annual operating budget because of missed enrollment goals and, unfortunately, its leaders didn’t entirely understand why.

Sliwa credits his FOCIS ®  training  for enabling him to get the college to “the tough questions” that affected the school’s future. The school was already hurting in obvious ways, such as staff layoffs, no raises, and low morale. Sliwa showed its leadership team how much worse things could get. “FOCIS ®  helped me listen for clues to problems and get to the implications,” Sliwa explains. He was “able to formulate” tough questions:

  • What would the layoffs do to workload?
  • How would that affect the school’s ability for quick turnarounds with prospective students?
  • How many more students-and dollars-would the school lose?
  • What would that do to the economy of the town?

The school’s leaders didn’t like the answers:  a predictable $2.5-million loss in the next year and a $1-million economic hit to the town. Naturally, they turned to the individual and organization that guided them to those answers-Bill Sliwa and the NRCCUA-to guide them to solutions.

As a result, the school increased its spending to attract students significantly. Much of the increase went to NRCCUA in the form of a full-service contract. The new contract was for $150,000-25 times greater than the $6,000 annual contract Sliwa had set out to renew. The new contract includes marketing services, staff training, and, of course, the data about high school students essential to successful recruiting.

Says Sliwa with satisfaction: “Numbers are up and the campus feels much better about facing the next year.” No doubt, the town does, too.

Scott Pemberton   is a senior consultant at Productive Strategies, Inc., a marketing and management consulting firm specializing in consultative sales training, lead generation and appointment setting, and marketing and marketing communications.  Scott can be reached at 847-446-0008 Extension 3 and at spemberton@productivestrategies.com.

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By Phil Krone, President June 18, 2024
Several years ago, I helped a Wisconsin piece-part manufacturer compete for a multimillion dollar opportunity. They asked me who I wanted to take along from their company, and I said the chief engineer, the head of quality control, and a production representative. Day 1: On the plane ride to the East Coast, I let everyone know we were looking for information that would give us a competitive advantage. Without it our odds of winning would be one in three or one in four, depending on how many competitors we were facing. The prospect organized a get-to-know-you cocktail event that evening. There we learned that the project involved a complete redesign of a common household appliance. The prospect’s people were excited because they had already received a large Christmas order from a major retailer. Our team debriefed later. Despite getting to know each of our counterparts from the prospect, we had not learned anything that would give us a competitive advantage. Day 2: We met with departmental leaders, including purchasing. Before the meeting our head of quality assurance had breakfast with his counterpart. He had learned that a design issue had not yet been resolved and was causing intermittent failures in the prototypes. Our prospect’s quality assurance head explained that just before going to one of the vice presidents for budget approval, he and his colleagues were playing with a prototype that failed to function intermittently. They went to the meeting and did get the approval. But just as they were heading out the door the VP asked, “Do we have a working prototype?” The engineers said yes, pulled it out of a briefcase, and handed it to him, holding their breath. He tested it, and it worked fine. “Let’s go,” he said. When I heard that, I knew we had learned something that could help us win the business: our competitive advantage. We started the meeting with the buyer’s procurement team by asking what the project we were bidding on would mean to each of them. We heard a range of responses: • “This project has the potential to help me be promoted from a line manager to production manager.” • “There should be so few quality issues I might be able to go on vacation this year.” • “The bonuses will help me pay for my kids’ college expenses.” Clearly, the success of this program was important to everyone on their team. More Stories about Winning the Business Read similar stories in my new book, B2B Selling: Business-to-Business Marketplace Insights and Observations, which is available on Amazon . We asked about what might derail the project. Despite soft questions from us, nobody brought up the problem of intermittent failures that we knew about. Finally, I did bring it up without revealing how we knew about it. The discussion then turned more serious. 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They had of course thought of that, but the VP who had approved the plan was out of the country. When this happens it is important to just ask the question that can bring the businesses back to you, in this case: Can we call him to see if he would approve the change? They made the call on a speaker phone so everyone could hear. His response wasn’t surprising. He was first of all unhappy that he hadn’t learned about the design issue sooner and that the vice president wasn’t told before approving the capital budget. Then he summed up the situation: “So what you’re telling me is that, first, we have a design problem none of our current vendors even know about let alone have a solution for. And, second, that you have a potential vendor on the spot who does have a solution and who can make the Christmas delivery date. Is that right?” After a pause, he said, “Change the plan!” We flew home that afternoon with the order. Here are the major takeaways: 1) The best way to gain an information advantage is to show up and do discovery in person. 2) If you can build bridges in addition to sales-to-purchasing, such as quality-to-quality, production-to-production, and engineering-to-engineering, you have increased the odds of learning what you need to know to gain a competitive advantage. 3) When told the business is not coming your way, but you know an order hasn’t been placed yet, keep asking what it would take to bring the project back to you. 4) Make sure your presentation is “prospect-centric”—that it is about the customer and his issues—not “seller-centric” and only about your capabilities. 5) If the program is large enough, or important enough, hiring outside resources to get the win can be a sound investment. 6) When following up on a submitted proposal, don’t ask “how do we look?” That reduces the discussion to price. Please get in touch with us directly at 847-446-0008 Ext. 1 or pkrone@productivestrategies.com .
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When I was president of a manufacturing company, a colleague and I flew to Little Rock, Arkansas, to compete for a contract for a new U.S. Army rocket program. It was a major piece of business with a multi-year contract as the prize. The people seated in front of us on the flight were talking loudly, and my colleague and I gave each other a look that said: “This is our competition.” We got their attention and suggested they might want to keep their discussion to themselves. (Why didn’t we just keep quiet and continue to listen? Well, spying—intentionally or unintentionally—wasn’t the way we conducted business, and it still isn’t.) And we did win the business. The upshot, of course, is that it’s a small, small world, and you never know who is listening, so be careful what you say. On the other hand, sometimes holding key information close to the vest is not the right strategy for the greater long-term good. When customer relationship management (CRM) software came on the scene, many salespeople resisted loading their contacts and other business intelligence into the corporate database. The thinking was twofold. First, it’s “my” hard-earned information. Second, if I’m the only one who has it, the company needs me. Keeping critical information in “my” little black book would make it harder for the company to lay me off. Clearly, this thinking was wrong on both counts. Unless you’re an independent sales representative, that information belongs to the company and even then be sure to read the fine print. And, of course, if you’re not performing or if larger, structural issues come into play, a little black book won’t save you. Companies must insist that salespeople keep the CRM database up to date and hold them accountable. Especially when used in concert with data from other sources, including other sales reps, that information can be leveraged into knowledge that leads to larger sales. You still don’t want the little black book information to walk out the door when a sales rep moves on either on their own initiative or yours. While not all companies think about another, perhaps more subtle component, great leverage also comes in the form of a proprietary sales process that all salespeople should be trained in. That way if a top performer leaves, the process doesn’t leave with them. (Ask us about our popular consultative sales training course, FOCIS®, which helps our clients build proprietary sales processes and trains business developers to use them.) Are your salespeople presenting your company’s product or service accurately? Two examples. We once worked with a company whose people told prospects that they were in the oil business. No, they were not. Their highly effective service was helping to absorb oil off shop floors and disposing of it. The shortcut explanation made it sound like they were in the oil exploration business. Not even close. And not only was that description confusing, but it also called the reps’ competence into question. Another instance that’s perhaps a little more subtle comes from a networking group I was in. Whenever one of our members gave the elevator speech version of his product, he said he provided sexual harassment training. No, just the opposite. He provided sexual harassment prevention training. He was not offering training in how to harass people. Protecting how you’re different from competition can be a valuable investment. For the Lettuce Entertain You restaurant group, restaurant design is a key differentiator. Before launching a new concept, the design is top secret, down to details like the tablecloths and the kind of wood that provided the concept’s style and personality. These things were protected with the help of intellectual property (IP) attorneys. At one point we trained the business developers of the company that supplied the wood elements for a Lettuce Entertain You restaurant design—in this case, Maggiano’s Little Italy. The specific elements that made up the various woods themselves as well as how they were incorporated into the design were extremely detailed. You don’t have to be in the restaurant business to take away a key lesson here. We’ve found that too many business owners and executives assume that what they do is not different enough from what their competitors do to set their businesses apart. In some thirty years of working with myriad B2B companies, we have never come across a business that didn’t have important points of differentiation. Your business is different, whether you think so or not, and that difference can be invaluable not only in marketing but also in sales. Keep in mind that information can be discovered and developed in many different and imaginative ways. For example, Subaru reportedly identified a new color for its cars—Cool Gray Khaki—by tracking trends in ski jackets. The insights improved targeting of at least one marketing segment for cars—young, active people—by better understanding what trends they were buying in other areas. In 2018, 18 percent of all the cars Subaru sold were Cool Gray Khaki. Finally, while we all know this cyber information safety tip, it bears repeating—at least from our own experience as well as that of others. If you’re too eager to come up with new insights, you can put yourself in harm’s way by clicking on email links or attached files whose sources you don’t really know. It’s especially important when their appearance mimics trusted sources you do know. We all also know the solution. To determine a source’s validity, call, text, or email that source separately. Some forty years ago, futurist and author of the mega-bestselling book Megatrends, famously said: “We are drowning in information but starved for knowledge.” That statement might or might not still be true. One thing that is true is that we’ve learned a lot more about how to turn information into knowledge, which makes the information we can absorb without drowning all the more valuable. To learn more, please call us at 847-446-0008 Ext. 1 or pkrone@productivestrategies.com .
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